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Post by germanfirsttimebuild on May 22, 2020 9:05:36 GMT
My Builders opinion:
First I have to mention that I totally believe in one sail supplier! Don has listed all the reasons which I fully agree with.
Nevertheless, I understand that it is a tough decision to be made, as I also agree with the Idea from Jayson (Both possible, extra fee for sail check if self made). But thinking of the main core of Globe580 we all talk about an affordable ocean going boat. Of course, the DIY Element in this class is very huge, but it is not the main goal of the class. In addition, the option of making own sails, will (maybe just slightly but will) impact the prices for everybody who is going for the one design sails as the numbers will make the price. So for the official events there should just be the option of one design sails. This I think will lead to the cheapest and most fair competiton. Those who mainly strieve for the DIY Idea, will probably be satisfied enough, if they are making their own sails for cruising the bay. But when entering the official competition must also go for one design sails.
I also like the idea of making a bulk order to again reduce the costs. I am definetely interrested in participating in one of those (shared shipping would also be a fair idea I would be ok with).
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Post by Julien on May 23, 2020 15:06:50 GMT
Question on main sail : often on small sailboats the luff is made of a rope that slides inside the mast rail (not sure of the exact terms in English but I hope you see what I mean) : this is a nightmare when reefing single handed. Do you plan to use instead of a luff rope some plastic sliding pieces (name ?? "chavillots" or "coulisseaux" in French) that fist into the rail and allows the mainsail to stay attached to the mast when reefing of lowering the mainsail??
J
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Post by Admin on May 23, 2020 23:18:11 GMT
YES!..when you release the mainsail halyard the main will slide down VERY easily and still be captured in the mast track with slides so it does NOT fall away out of control...it will also be set up with Lazyjacks...that contains the mainsail ( sort of ) on the boom..these same for Round the world single handed sailors...you can also reef the mainsail from the cocpit without leaving it..if you want....On TREKKA I will also fit a roller reefing system for my JIB..Yes it adds weight..but keeps you off the bow saving weight forward and is easy. I will also have the No 2 Gennaker on a furling system... getting in front fast solo racing is often more about not making mistakes that sailing faster than the other guy who makes mistakes ...Keep the dream alive !!
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Post by aaronnz on May 23, 2020 23:56:05 GMT
Don, Quick thought: how about a split method... If I buy from the official supplier there there is nothing other than checking the sails on board are from that supplier. If I pay for a local build, I have to pay a certification fee prior to race start (x days before checkin maybe?) to prove sails are right. Once certified by CG580 (and marked as such) then I'm good to race with those sails until I replace them. That allows the builder to make a rational decision based on use and budget. If I can get them made to spec local for cheap it allows me to get on the water "faster". It may cost me more in the long run, but that a cash flow decision I should be allowed to make. All interesting BUT..what if we find that the One supplier sail is not only cheaper than the local sail, but higher quality?? or spec? and what design sail will you use..a sail is much more than luff leach foot...they are designed with a shape and is yours right..when all sail with the same design ..it is a cool feeling.. so Yes it is all up for discussion..no decisions yet...also would you go crosscut or Tri-Radial.. ..thanks for the comments So how about - have the official supplier as an option or for builders to source locally and get certified at appropriate time - then it is up to the builder/sailor to decide what is possible. Once the R&D is done on one set of sails it is not difficult to pump out another set by sail loft so besides losing exclusivity, they will not be out of pocket as I can imagine a % of builders will take there preferred supplier route anyway - it also works in favour of cash flow - a sailor can purchase a main and jib from local sailmaker and then get out and rig boat and tune and tweak, assuming there maybe a bit of in and out and mods to be done - and then add to their quiver when possible instead of having to by a set of sails to keep freight etc down. create a class plan with pretty defined sail plan and then certification should be pretty easy - and could be undertaken by national organisations under strict rules etc. There is a trust factor in there but with the spirit of the class being shoestring sailing and builder experience it makes sense not to limit these options so early in the development of a class - also looking forward as to how many of these boats will be made to actually compete offshore or inshore vs fun hobby boating.... would be interesting to see quick survey as to peoples future intentions.
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Post by Admin on May 24, 2020 3:06:34 GMT
Wow..a lot to replay to..and thanks for the comments... 1. Way to early to do any suveys..we are only two months old and sailors are still learning about it and then many not be ready yet to build for aother year as they have to oganise life etc...that will take two years to know the scope of things... 2. You cannot go sailing with any less than a main and Jib..and those two sails you will always be able to buy just them, or anything you want? and door to door frieght has about a $45 standard fee then by weight..so two shipments not a big deal. 3. The 5.80 is a Racing class..BUT they make great micro cruiser, so they can make any sails NOT OD sails, but anyone Racing wants the best..club or offshore and that will be the objective to get the best at value by bulk BUY fom one sailmake fo five years. 4. This whole process started when we realised the challenge of writing a document for measuring sails, cloth weights, cut etc and who pays fo the measurement? and checking at each event again, running the records etc and then realising that common sense says..hang on ..we are talking about everyone having identicle sails as the objective and we said..that is a lot of identicle sails we can offer a sailmaker and gain real cost and One design advantages 5 When we get all porposals in and assess them to detirmine where the benefits lay or not? ..the decision will be all 5.80 official sails fom one exclusive supplier....or each sailor gets their own and pays for sail registration/measuring by the intenational class, as 5.80 National Associations may not be set up for another year?? or so and some countries maybe years yet. Final comment is that what we are seeing right now fom the four proposals delivered (hoping to see a couple more this week-8 expessed interest) is some very real cost/quality benefits buy offering this oppotunity to one supplier that follows our pinciple of KEEP COST DOWN!! But fun factor UP!!. There is the very real possibility of up to 200 hundered boats "maybe" building/sailing be end of 2021..but lets wait and see..way to early to call for now. .. Thanks!
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Post by Admin on May 31, 2020 21:39:06 GMT
REPOSTED HERE fom the "How much to build a 5.80" POST....By PICLE RICH As a sailmaker I really hope that the sails for these boat's don't become "one design". $2000 for a main and jib is very cheap and corners would have been cut to make them at this price (I worked out my mainsail price at $1750 plus tax as a base line using a half decent dacron and no frills finishing) The material cost for the mainsail and jib alone is around $1000 not including battens. As a cost comparison a sabre mainsail (12ft plywood home built single handed dinghy) is around the $1000 mark and it doesn't have reefing points, and a Finn mainsail is over $2000+ tax. a laser sail is a great example of this. If a sailmaker delivered a sail which has so many creases across it you would not accept it, but in a one design situation you pay a premium for them! There will be a lot of other small differences with the masts being homebuilt as well with people choosing different reefing systems and than needing there sails changed to suit as an example. which are all costs in addition and will drive the price up. The same can happen with jibs and genoas with corner finishing. I do believe the best option will be for people to be able to use their local sailmaker to build the sails that they need. You'll always be able to get cheap options to get you on the water or for short passages and cruising, but it would be a big ask for a $1200 mainsail to sail around the world. Having worked for a large sailmaker who does offshore manufacturing warranty work and small changes are not as easy as people might think. There are a few other options when it comes to keeping a lid on costs. You can have an approved list of fabrics which the sails can be made out of. This keeps those more exotic and expensive option from being used. any sailmaker can apply to the class to have a fabric approved but it's up to the association to decide if it's worth it. Having a good set of class rules as well with minimum and maximum number of panels and other build standards are another way to keep a bit of control over what gets produced. Also when you have your skin in the games as a local sailmaker you want your product to do well! There is always someone who will do it cheaper but that's not what everyone wants. I really love this concept of a "cheap" homebuilt offshore capable boat with decent races, I really want it to succeed and I hope an open mind is kept in this regard. Sorry for the bit of a rant but I really do think it would be the wrong option for a "budget" class.
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Post by craigsailing on Jun 5, 2020 6:51:35 GMT
Radial cut every time... I want my investment and VMG to last.
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Post by jaysen on Jun 6, 2020 22:52:39 GMT
All interesting BUT..what if we find that the One supplier sail is not only cheaper than the local sail, but higher quality?? or spec? and what design sail will you use..a sail is much more than luff leach foot...they are designed with a shape and is yours right..when all sail with the same design ..it is a cool feeling.. so Yes it is all up for discussion..no decisions yet...also would you go crosscut or Tri-Radial.. ..thanks for the comments I've been giving this some thought. And here's where I landed. If we are flying "one design" then it shouldn't matter who made the sails, they should all be made the same. I guess I assumed that the measurements verified would ensure we have the same batten location./dimensions, roach, etc (the fabrics are already restricted...). If we aren't going to go to that length then we start to limit the ability of others to be competitive unless they have the resources (money) to "buy experience". So I'm all for "one design" sails. Once the design is set, I would prefer that we be able to purchase those sails from an authorized (pre-certified) sailmaker or we can pay to have our sails certified later (home built, local sailmaker, etc). As to crosscut or radial, I don't feel qualified to make an argument one way or the other. I've not educated myself on the finer points of sail making and, seeing that I'm in for "one design" sails, I'll use what you tell me to use Heck, even if I have the option for local sailmaker, I'll probably buy pre-certified sails for the Globe if I'm able to participate.
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Post by Admin on Jun 13, 2020 11:58:27 GMT
Latest update on the process of deciding about One Design single supplier status.The decision will be made on 25th June. About 15 sailmakers enquired about the opportunity and suggested they would submit proposals. In the end 9 actually did. Three were large high profile interational lofts with global agents and distribution. All of those were within 10% of each other in pricing. This is what you could expect to pay if you walked into those lofts. Infact two of them offered that pice to the 5.80 class. The 5.80 spec we decide on will be similar to this proposal. One loft, Quantum sails has offered their Proposal to be made public, so I attach it here. For now it is clear that the advantages of appointing an exclusive supplier are real on all three primary isssues....
TRI-RADIAL MAIN SAIL DETAIL TRI-RADIAL MAIN Quantum® sails are fit to purpose and custom designed using iQ Technology®, our proprietary suite of design and computational tools. The TR 2200 is a Tri Radial sail built with panels of pre-made warp-oriented, woven radial polyester Proposal Date: 6/2/2020 STANDARD FEATURES Optimized roach profile for rig geometry and client design criteria Custom batten layout optimized for sail geometry: 3 Full, 1 Mid Durtek Diamond Tapered 20 x 8 Battens Custom, teardrop-shape corner and reef reinforcements Custom batten adjustment system 3 reef(s) Loose foot with additional foot round High-modulus adjustable leech and foot cords with appropriate purchase Cunningham Stainless steel rings or soft corners as appropriate Custom headboard Leech telltales Draft stripes Drawstring sail bag Sail ties QUANTUM SAILS BOAT & SAIL SPECS Mini Globe 5.80 P: 7.217 m E: 2.600 m Sail Area: 12.572 m2 MATERIALS Pro Radial 5.1 (100%) SAIL CONFIGURATION Tri Radial Mainsail Main; 3 Full, 1 Mid Batten Pockets; Durtek Diamond Tapered 20 x 8 Battens; 3 Reefs BASE PRICE €1,726.19 TOTAL PRICE €1,726.19
TRI-RADIAL Jib-hanks-1 reef SAIL DETAIL TRI-RADIAL Jib-hanks-1 reef Quantum® sails are fit to purpose and custom designed using iQ Technology®, our proprietary suite of design and computational tools. The TR 2200 is a Tri Radial sail built with panels of pre-made warp-oriented, woven radial polyester Proposal Date: 6/2/2020 STANDARD FEATURES Optimized clew height for rig geometry and client design criteria Custom teardrop-shape corner reinforcements Adjustable leech and foot cords with appropriate purchase Stainless steel clew ring Webbing head and tack loops Luff telltales Draft stripes Drawstring sail bag QUANTUM SAILS BOAT & SAIL SPECS Mini Globe 5.80 I: 6.240 m J: 2.000 m LP: 119 % Sail Area: 7.642 m2 MATERIALS Pro Radial 5.1 (100%) SAIL CONFIGURATION Tri Radial Headsail #1 Genoa BASE PRICE €894.02 SELECTED OPTIONS (1) Leech and Luff Reef €68.15 (1) Wichard Hook - 2481 €19.33 TOTAL PRICE €981.50
TRI-RADIAL Furling jib SAIL DETAIL TRI-RADIAL Furling jib Quantum® sails are fit to purpose and custom designed using iQ Technology®, our proprietary suite of design and computational tools. The TR 2200 is a Tri Radial sail built with panels of pre-made warp-oriented, woven radial polyester Proposal Date: 6/2/2020 STANDARD FEATURES Optimized clew height for rig geometry and client design criteria Custom teardrop-shape corner reinforcements Adjustable leech and foot cords with appropriate purchase Stainless steel clew ring Webbing head and tack loops Luff telltales Draft stripes Drawstring sail bag QUANTUM SAILS BOAT & SAIL SPECS Mini Globe 5.80 I: 6.240 m J: 2.000 m LP: 119 % Sail Area: 7.642 m2 MATERIALS Pro Radial 5.1 (100%) SAIL CONFIGURATION Tri Radial Headsail Furling Genoa BASE PRICE €832.11 SELECTED OPTIONS (1) UV Cover Weathermax 6oz €103.17 (1) Foam Luff €68.48 TOTAL PRICE €1,003.76
STORM JIB SAIL DETAIL STORM JIB Quantum® sails are fit to purpose and custom designed using iQ Technology®, our proprietary suite of design and computational tools. Quantum's cross-cut sails feature the finest woven polyester sailcloth. Tight weave, high-tenacity yarns and maximum stretch resistance for best shape retention. Proposal Date: 6/2/2020 STANDARD FEATURES StormJib QUANTUM SAILS BOAT & SAIL SPECS Mini Globe 5.80 I: 6.240 m J: 2.000 m Sail Area: 1.651 m2 MATERIALS Storm Orange 9.88 (100%) SAIL CONFIGURATION Cross Cut Headsail Storm Jib BASE PRICE €559.08 SELECTED OPTIONS (1) Leech and Luff Reef €33.20 (1) Wichard Hook - 2481 €19.33 TOTAL PRICE €611.61
ASYMMETRICAL A3 SAIL DETAIL ASYMMETRICAL A3 Designed using Quantum's iQ suite of computational tools, constructed from Fibermax 44 (100%). Full sized mid-girth of 95-100% optimizes shape for broad reaching and running angles. Final sizing and shape tailored to owner's design target. Multi-panel tri radial construction for accurate 3D shaping and smooth flying shape and precise alignment of loads. Proposal Date: 6/2/2020 STANDARD FEATURES Computer molded using iQ Technology, Quantum's proprietary design suite Full radial construction with shaping in every seam Color choice available for nylon spinnakers Adjustable leech and foot cords Stainless steel corner rings with webbing reinforcements Drawstring bag QUANTUM SAILS BOAT & SAIL SPECS Mini Globe 5.80 ISP: 7.072 m J: 2.000 m Sail Area: 25.632 m2 MATERIALS Fibermax 44 (100%) SAIL CONFIGURATION Tri Radial Asymmetrical A3 BASE PRICE €1,196.55 SELECTED OPTIONS (1) Spinnaker Duffle Bag €129.96 TOTAL PRICE €1,326.51
ASYMMETRICAL A5 SAIL DETAIL ASYMMETRICAL A5 Designed using Quantum's iQ suite of computational tools, constructed from Fibermax 64 (100%). Full sized mid-girth of 95-100% optimizes shape for broad reaching and running angles. Final sizing and shape tailored to owner's design target. Multi-panel tri radial construction for accurate 3D shaping and smooth flying shape and precise alignment of loads. Proposal Date: 6/2/2020 STANDARD FEATURES Computer molded using iQ Technology, Quantum's proprietary design suite Full radial construction with shaping in every seam Color choice available for nylon spinnakers Adjustable leech and foot cords Stainless steel corner rings with webbing reinforcements Drawstring bag QUANTUM SAILS BOAT & SAIL SPECS Mini Globe 5.80 ISP2: 6.755 m J: 2.000 m Sail Area: 19.378 m2 MATERIALS Fibermax 64 (100%) SAIL CONFIGURATION Tri Radial Asymmetrical A5 BASE PRICE €1,040.38 SELECTED OPTIONS (1) Spinnaker Duffle Bag €129.96 TOTAL PRICE €1,170.34
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Post by wimdouma on Jun 15, 2020 21:03:21 GMT
That is ex. VAT?
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Post by Admin on Jun 16, 2020 8:43:50 GMT
Yes! but do not worry...we are not paying those prices....we hope to decide who by the end of the month but this is a good idication of the quality/Spec... THNX..
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Post by jaysen on Jun 16, 2020 11:19:26 GMT
Maybe I'm missing it, but what about sail numbers? Since these would be official for class racing I'm assuming they will be required. Last sail order I was involved with, the numbers were applied by the maker. Did they provide costing for that as well?
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Post by Admin on Jun 16, 2020 14:00:18 GMT
All 5.80's will have sail numbers on main, Jib and St. Jib that are your plan numbers/race numbers...and a national flag 70cm x 45cm and a Large Globe 5.80 safety organe insignia at the head of the main as the safety patch...
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Post by jaysen on Jun 16, 2020 14:37:32 GMT
All 5.80's will have sail numbers on main, Jib and St. Jib that are your plan numbers/race numbers...and a national flag 70cm x 45cm and a Large Globe 5.80 safety organe insignia at the head of the main as the safety patch... Yes, but is that included in the bid? I'm not seeing it listed but I could just be missing it due to excitement
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Post by Admin on Jun 23, 2020 4:25:32 GMT
All 5.80's will have sail numbers on main, Jib and St. Jib that are your plan numbers/race numbers...and a national flag 70cm x 45cm and a Large Globe 5.80 safety organe insignia at the head of the main as the safety patch... Yes, but is that included in the bid? I'm not seeing it listed but I could just be missing it due to excitement Sorry I missed this earlier....this was their bid to our initial spec before final negotiations and their usual prices. WE offer considerable opportuities to this offer, so everythig is being negotiated...it has take a LOT of time...thanks..we will decide 1st JULY then present all details and final offers etc 1st August....THX
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